Who really  won the Kramnik vs. Leko match?

 2/23/2005 - I had this interesting conversation with a guest on ICC.  Here is a transcript.

 

 Hangin : Well Peter had a successful world championship match. 
 
he didn't lose the match.. i consider that successful.  he played a heroic game 8 

guest3017(U) tells you: well, I think from the Champion's point of view the Champion is successful if he holds his title, which he did  

 Hangin :   well kramnik had a successful match 

 guest3017(U) tells you: Kramnik retained his title, so a successful one for Leko would only be one in which Leko won the match
 

 Hangin:  but Leko came out stronger ..  out his match with Kramnik, as a stronger player.. Leko  won Corus. that tells me Leko .. had a successful world champ match.. maybe more successful than Kramnik. Leko appears to be the stronger player now.

 guest3017(U) tells you: I don't think the match was successful for Leko.  Well contested, heroic, all of that, yes.

 Hangin :  any time you draw the champ in a match.. as a challenger I consider that successful

guest3017(U) tells you: it's not so much opinion as fact.  A challenger doesn't challenge so that he can draw a match.  He tries to win, otherwise he wouldn't be the challenger.  The champion, by virtue of his status, needs only a draw to retain his title.  The measure of success, objectively, is by who has the title at the end of the day.

Hangin
: .. i simply think as a first time challenger to the world champion.. if you show him you are his equal.. by drawing the match.. i consider that a successful match for both players.. slightly more so for the challenger

guest3017(U) tells you: more so for the challenger? , Wow that makes no sense

Hangin: the champs supposed to be the best.. the tied match shows he's not

guest3017(U) tells you: the champ needs merely to show that nobody is better than him.   the challenger has the burden of proof on his shoulders.

 Hangin : that's your champ.. my champs are different

guest3017 : challenger has to take the game to a higher level .  like Lasker had to bring the game higher than Steinitz, Capa had to bring it higher than Lasker.

 Hangin:  the challenger met the burden.. that's says. hey i am as good as you are .. and you are the champ
 

guest3017(U) tells you: no, no, if that were the case we'd transfer the title to the challenger on a draw

Hangin:   right.. hey .. the challenger has to win the match.. to be champ.. no question. it also depends.. how the challenger responds ..after the tied after the tie. Leko has gotten stronger. He won Corus.

guest3017(U) tells you: well yes.  Leko has been more impressive after. but you mean if Leko wins the title and let's say Kramnik later on challenges him to a rematch and they draw ... you think Kramnik will be slightly more successful than Leko?

 Hangin : as an ex world champ.. you want to regain your title. But for a first time challenger to the title. I think a tie can been seen as a partial victory. You have shown to be the champions equal.

guest3017(u): you: okay, but as a challenger like Leko, who has been dreaming of being WC ever since he was a kid ... you also want to win the title as a challenger

 Hangin :  absolutely .. but Leko has only gotten stronger,  he's more determined.. he said as much after the
match

guest3017(U) tells you: yes.  Leko seems to be getting stronger

Hangin all i am saying.. is that there has to be some level of success.. by drawing the champion. Some players get weaker after a failed world championship match. Nigel short for one, he lost to Kasparov back in 1993. He got weaker. He lost his desire for chess.  

guest3017(U) tells you: but the champion holds the higher degree of success I would think.  He's defending his belt and does so

 Hangin. the point being is.. for the challenger is, i didn't lose  to champion.. i was his was equal. In fact, I think kramnik should be a little disappointed that he didn't show his dominance .

guest3017(U) tells you: if Leko goes on to win the title, they might ask him his impressions of the match (that he wins) and he'll say something like: "THIS time I was successful because ...yaddayaddayadda "

guest3017(U) tells you: in other words, I doubt that he thinks he was successful against Kramnik in their match.  Not that he wasn't somewhat successful, which he was ... but I doubt he'd describe it as a successful match, especially given what happened to him at the last game

Hangin:  ! i am sure he is disappointed.. but not completely

 guest3017: no.  But I think Kramnik feels satisfied with the result of that match.  He had a big scare but he is satisfied. so I would say he probably feels more successful than Leko about it

 Hangin :kramnik is lazy, kramnik is an artist..  not your typical world champ.. he's not even the best player any longer\. 

 guest3017(U) tells you: this is more of a personal thing than an objective one for you.  I mean, I prefer Leko to Kramnik too, but your stance is not an objective one regarding the outcome of the match

 Hangin : am completely objective about the match out come.. as a challenger if you draw the champion.. i think you can consider your result a successful one. maybe not a total successful.. but still you proved to be the champs equal. also I think chess needs a new hero.. I want Leko to be that hero

 guest3017(U) tells you: you are not objective at all ... as evidenced by your strong dislike of Kramnik and your comment that in a rematch, if Leko were champion and Kramnik challenger, that you think Kramnik would NOT be successful by drawing the match under those circumstances

 Hangin: I don't dislike kramnik at all

 guest3017(U) tells you: well you certainly have some problems with him

 Hangin:  he's the champion.. I am one of the few chess people who acknowledge his great achievement by defeating Kasparov

guest3017(U) tells you: "lazy" "gotten weaker," etc  all of which is true

 Hangin:  well, I call them as I see them  I an completely objective about kramnik

guest3017(U) tells you: but your position on the world championship match -- I don't know of one person who shares that opinion

Hangin: well.. there are plenty who don't even think kramnik is champ

guest3017(U) tells you: but most of them still wouldn't call the match more successful for Leko than for Kramnik

Hangin: I do.. i am a man who beat the man who beat the man guy

guest3017(U) tells you: anyway, so you're rooting for Leko to win Linares?

Hangin:  i think chess needs a new hero.. Leko been labeled the draw master..  I hope his world champ experience.. made him stronger.. and his play is on a high level. it showed at Corus.. i want it to show here (Linares).. as well.. I want chess to have another new hero.. so i want Leko to continue his progress

guest3017(U) tells you: I still like Anand the best though

Hangin i like Anand .. but he's rejected many .. too many world champ opportunities

guest3017(U) tells you: I'm rooting for him

(told guest3017)

guest3017(U) tells you: yes

guest3017(U) tells you: but he still has a shot left in him

guest3017(U) tells you: hopefully

Hangin: good.. I am rooting for Anand to have a great tourney.. just like I am rooting for Leko, Kasparov.